Friday, October 14, 2011
Ranee at Arabian Knits wrote:
> Regardless, I do wonder about your initial implication and later statement that property is theft. Does that mean that you eschew all property? Or are you an unrepentant thief? Or, like so many with this ideological stance, do you view yourself as being more worthy of such possessions than the average man?
>
Mea culpa! Maxi Mea Culpa!
Woman is the Nigger of the World, we are all prostitutes, slaves and bozos on this bus, a bunch of gullible heard animals and property (especially private) property is theft.
I am a flawed, imperfect being caught in an inescapable trap not of my own making, in that i own property then yes, i am a thief, but NOT "unrepentant".
I like to believe that the earth, the means of production and labour cannot and should not be owned by individuals and to do so should be a crime. Labour precedes and creates capital.
Here i must paraphrase a poet who, imo, puts the proposition more succinctly than i....
There shall be no Property in Human Thought. Let each think as he will concerning the
Universe; but let none seek to impose that Thought upon another by any Threat of Penalty in this
World or any other World.
There shall be no Property in Human Flesh.
Every Man and every Woman hath Right
Indefeasable to give the Body for the Enjoyment of any other.
The Exercise of this Right shall
not be punished either by Law or by Custom; there shall be no Penalty either by Loss or
Curtailment of Liberty, of Rights, of Wealth, or of Social Esteem; but this Freedom shall be
respected of all, seeing that it is the Right of the Bodily Will.
******
For this same Reason thou shalt
cause full Restriction and Punishment of any who may seek to limit that Freedom for the sake of
his own Profit, or Desire, or Ideal.
*****
Every Man and every Woman has full right either to grant or
to deny the Body, as the Will speaketh within.
This being made Custom, the Evils of Love,
which are many, extending to the Disturbance not only of Body but of Mind, and that in obscure
Paths, shall little by little disappear from the Face of The unspeakable Glory.
--
JL
> Regardless, I do wonder about your initial implication and later statement that property is theft. Does that mean that you eschew all property? Or are you an unrepentant thief? Or, like so many with this ideological stance, do you view yourself as being more worthy of such possessions than the average man?
>
Mea culpa! Maxi Mea Culpa!
Woman is the Nigger of the World, we are all prostitutes, slaves and bozos on this bus, a bunch of gullible heard animals and property (especially private) property is theft.
I am a flawed, imperfect being caught in an inescapable trap not of my own making, in that i own property then yes, i am a thief, but NOT "unrepentant".
I like to believe that the earth, the means of production and labour cannot and should not be owned by individuals and to do so should be a crime. Labour precedes and creates capital.
Here i must paraphrase a poet who, imo, puts the proposition more succinctly than i....
There shall be no Property in Human Thought. Let each think as he will concerning the
Universe; but let none seek to impose that Thought upon another by any Threat of Penalty in this
World or any other World.
There shall be no Property in Human Flesh.
Every Man and every Woman hath Right
Indefeasable to give the Body for the Enjoyment of any other.
The Exercise of this Right shall
not be punished either by Law or by Custom; there shall be no Penalty either by Loss or
Curtailment of Liberty, of Rights, of Wealth, or of Social Esteem; but this Freedom shall be
respected of all, seeing that it is the Right of the Bodily Will.
******
For this same Reason thou shalt
cause full Restriction and Punishment of any who may seek to limit that Freedom for the sake of
his own Profit, or Desire, or Ideal.
*****
Every Man and every Woman has full right either to grant or
to deny the Body, as the Will speaketh within.
This being made Custom, the Evils of Love,
which are many, extending to the Disturbance not only of Body but of Mind, and that in obscure
Paths, shall little by little disappear from the Face of The unspeakable Glory.
--
JL
Monday, August 1, 2011
>Sun Jul 31, 2011 at 07:15 PM PDT
>
>POTUS Has Our Back
>by airforceblue
>
> What they also got is a damocles hanging over their head in the form of the soon to expire Bush tax cuts, which Obama can blackmail them with just as they did all of us with the debt ceiling.
>
>
Shouldn't that be "a sword of Damocles"?
Or do they plan to start lynching the republicans?
When you casually mug the rich you usually only get spare change.
To make them cough up more of their ill got gains (sell off at least one
private jet and limit oneself to only half a dozen polo ponies) you got
to seriously threaten their rights and privileges (legal & social) to
exercise the ability to be rich & powerfull (confiscatory taxes, government
regulatory agencies, private property, control of the means of
production) before they will try to bribe you off with a
larger share of their ill-gotten gains.
Which, by then its probly to late anyway and hopefully, carrying that
picture of Chairman Mao wont be so meaningless any how:)
--
JL
Tuesday, June 14, 2011
Janet wrote:
>
>it only stands to reason that i would interpret your remarks as more indicative of your >abilities to formulate, much less express your personal bias's as any exceptional quality to >them:)
>
>
>
> Your premise makes no grammatical sense, and even worse, it contains a misuse of the apostrophe.
>
> Janet
>
>
The horror! the horror!
"The themes explored by Burgess in The Wanting Seed seem all-too-relevant at the dawn of this twenty-first century, as land and resources dwindle and the Earth’s population continues to rise steadily, with the world’s most powerful empires engaged in an undeclared, undefined war on an Enemy whose name is simply ‘Terror’. Is it possible that even now, the masses are being manipulated into support for a pragmatic, never-ending war necessary to sustain a quality of life that seems otherwise unsustainable? Perhaps, as Burgess suggests, the masses won’t have it any other way. Perhaps human existence, for most, really is little more than sex and death—one forever demanding the other."
--
JL
>
>it only stands to reason that i would interpret your remarks as more indicative of your >abilities to formulate, much less express your personal bias's as any exceptional quality to >them:)
>
>
>
> Your premise makes no grammatical sense, and even worse, it contains a misuse of the apostrophe.
>
> Janet
>
>
The horror! the horror!
"The themes explored by Burgess in The Wanting Seed seem all-too-relevant at the dawn of this twenty-first century, as land and resources dwindle and the Earth’s population continues to rise steadily, with the world’s most powerful empires engaged in an undeclared, undefined war on an Enemy whose name is simply ‘Terror’. Is it possible that even now, the masses are being manipulated into support for a pragmatic, never-ending war necessary to sustain a quality of life that seems otherwise unsustainable? Perhaps, as Burgess suggests, the masses won’t have it any other way. Perhaps human existence, for most, really is little more than sex and death—one forever demanding the other."
--
JL
Saturday, May 14, 2011
Doug Freyburger wrote:
> M. JL Esq. wrote:
>
>> sf wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I only hear about "Thor" in the last couple of days... apparently it's
>>> a box office hit. Is this a movie based in Mythology?
>>
>>
>> NO! its based on the comic book
>
>
>
> And it's pretty good if you are a comic book fan or used to be. If you
> actually follow Thor, well, it works if you were a comic book fan long
> before you started following Thor.
>
> As to the myths, they are no more changed than Wagner did in his operas.
Welll...youll only get an argument from me cause i like to argue:) and know just enough about both Norse mythology and Wagner to make it amusing for me to do so:)
Plus im waiting on the plumber and have nothing better to do:)
And then, i have not seen the movie, only watched a few interviews with the star, director and Anthony Hopkins. The "Star" Thor explained in the movie and in the interview that the Valhalla of the movie is an scientifically advance extraterrestrial civilization and not some theological "Heaven" where the Great God or Gods Live.
A similar theme has been done a few times with the Olympic Gods and Mount Olympus. From Star Trek to Star Gate. A cinematic or literary fictionalization of Gods & Angels & Demons as ET's & UFO's & etc.
Think Cargo Cult for the modern world, Erik von Daniken lives!!! I suppose its only a matter of time till the Holy Blood and Holly Grail ilk and other assorted "Chalice" mythology is expressed in a Sci Fi format. Its not the Bavarian illuminati its the ET's!
STTNG did one episode like that where an interplanetary criminal lady went around disguising her self with an advanced "holographic" technology and tractor beams and such as the local planetary demon. Very convincingly as a sufficiently scientifically advanced culture impacting a less scientifically advanced culture would. As the Cargo Cults and The conquest of Mexico & South America demonstrate.
For all the liberties Wagner took with the less than unified Norse mythology, the worst was done before him, the Christian element alone is considered by some analysts of his operas to be indicative of more primitive myths surviving by adopting the conquering religions names for the major characters. The Grail and the Knights of the grail are seen by some to be, originally pre christian heroic tales. The names were changed to protect the tellers of them.
And with much time and elaboration came to symbolize an ideal of a struggle between good and evil as seen through the ideology of "Jesus" and his tribes rather than Odin and his. Some people thought (think?) that Wagners operas were TOO Pagan and un christian to be shown to a Christian audience. And of course the associations of them with that particular political party in Germany in the 1930's - 1940's is unfortunate.
What development or stage of norse mythology concerning Odin & his Family and his place of the gods ultimate destiny, was fully formed before it interacted with Christian mythology. That so much of it was adapted to Christian mythology is interesting if for no other reason than to demonstrate the universality of these types of myths.
Many African, traditional religious practices & traditions came to the "new world" with the slaves abducted to it. And those myths also adopted Christian terminology as a disguise for their own stories.
To me the Ancient Egyptian Cosmology is interesting in its real estate or topography:)
In Norse, Greek, Roman, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Muslim, Hebrew myth there is a place where "God" (and/or "Gods) is (or are) and if you are good you get to go there and join them after death. If you are not good there are other places you may or may not go.
However, as i understand Ancient Egyptian Theology, Every body goes to "the land of the dead" where the Ancient Egyptian God Osiris Reigns over the dead. In a sort of neutral and more grey than beige cosmic waiting room, neither good nor bad, neither hot nor cold, neither living nor dead just waiting for your boat of a million years to dock:)
It is the only Feudal "Heaven" i am aware of. All the others are much more egalitarian and democratic if you live well enough to merit being there.
In the Egyptian conceit, ones good and evil is measured (like a resume) and if one is found unworthy and 'not good enough' one merely ceases to be (don't get the job). If ones is judged "worthy" if ones good is even merely equal to ones bad one gets a pass, but it makes no difference if ones good far out weighs ones bad, even if one were a saint one would just be given a number and told to take a seat.
And then spend an eternity waiting on the Pleasure of Osiris whose feudal slave/property one is applying to be. And if you are just good enough, if your good is merely equal to your bad you get the privilege of being Gods' slave and feudal property. Pharaoh means Great House and in that House Father owns everything and everybody as his personal property to do with as he will, and from which there is no higher authority authority to appeal to.
The Hebrew and Christian Heaven at least offer music lessons:)
Valhalla and Mount Olympus are quite lively places, The Garden of Allah has all those virgins running around, Buddhist Nirvana is at least described as a type of cessation of desire, Amaritsu rules The Divine Land of the Gods, that is even prettier than its physical place of origins in the minds of Japanese mystics. Imagine the entire world as a Japanese Zen Tea Garden.....
And then the plumber knocked on the door....
--
JL
> M. JL Esq. wrote:
>
>> sf wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I only hear about "Thor" in the last couple of days... apparently it's
>>> a box office hit. Is this a movie based in Mythology?
>>
>>
>> NO! its based on the comic book
>
>
>
> And it's pretty good if you are a comic book fan or used to be. If you
> actually follow Thor, well, it works if you were a comic book fan long
> before you started following Thor.
>
> As to the myths, they are no more changed than Wagner did in his operas.
Welll...youll only get an argument from me cause i like to argue:) and know just enough about both Norse mythology and Wagner to make it amusing for me to do so:)
Plus im waiting on the plumber and have nothing better to do:)
And then, i have not seen the movie, only watched a few interviews with the star, director and Anthony Hopkins. The "Star" Thor explained in the movie and in the interview that the Valhalla of the movie is an scientifically advance extraterrestrial civilization and not some theological "Heaven" where the Great God or Gods Live.
A similar theme has been done a few times with the Olympic Gods and Mount Olympus. From Star Trek to Star Gate. A cinematic or literary fictionalization of Gods & Angels & Demons as ET's & UFO's & etc.
Think Cargo Cult for the modern world, Erik von Daniken lives!!! I suppose its only a matter of time till the Holy Blood and Holly Grail ilk and other assorted "Chalice" mythology is expressed in a Sci Fi format. Its not the Bavarian illuminati its the ET's!
STTNG did one episode like that where an interplanetary criminal lady went around disguising her self with an advanced "holographic" technology and tractor beams and such as the local planetary demon. Very convincingly as a sufficiently scientifically advanced culture impacting a less scientifically advanced culture would. As the Cargo Cults and The conquest of Mexico & South America demonstrate.
For all the liberties Wagner took with the less than unified Norse mythology, the worst was done before him, the Christian element alone is considered by some analysts of his operas to be indicative of more primitive myths surviving by adopting the conquering religions names for the major characters. The Grail and the Knights of the grail are seen by some to be, originally pre christian heroic tales. The names were changed to protect the tellers of them.
And with much time and elaboration came to symbolize an ideal of a struggle between good and evil as seen through the ideology of "Jesus" and his tribes rather than Odin and his. Some people thought (think?) that Wagners operas were TOO Pagan and un christian to be shown to a Christian audience. And of course the associations of them with that particular political party in Germany in the 1930's - 1940's is unfortunate.
What development or stage of norse mythology concerning Odin & his Family and his place of the gods ultimate destiny, was fully formed before it interacted with Christian mythology. That so much of it was adapted to Christian mythology is interesting if for no other reason than to demonstrate the universality of these types of myths.
Many African, traditional religious practices & traditions came to the "new world" with the slaves abducted to it. And those myths also adopted Christian terminology as a disguise for their own stories.
To me the Ancient Egyptian Cosmology is interesting in its real estate or topography:)
In Norse, Greek, Roman, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Muslim, Hebrew myth there is a place where "God" (and/or "Gods) is (or are) and if you are good you get to go there and join them after death. If you are not good there are other places you may or may not go.
However, as i understand Ancient Egyptian Theology, Every body goes to "the land of the dead" where the Ancient Egyptian God Osiris Reigns over the dead. In a sort of neutral and more grey than beige cosmic waiting room, neither good nor bad, neither hot nor cold, neither living nor dead just waiting for your boat of a million years to dock:)
It is the only Feudal "Heaven" i am aware of. All the others are much more egalitarian and democratic if you live well enough to merit being there.
In the Egyptian conceit, ones good and evil is measured (like a resume) and if one is found unworthy and 'not good enough' one merely ceases to be (don't get the job). If ones is judged "worthy" if ones good is even merely equal to ones bad one gets a pass, but it makes no difference if ones good far out weighs ones bad, even if one were a saint one would just be given a number and told to take a seat.
And then spend an eternity waiting on the Pleasure of Osiris whose feudal slave/property one is applying to be. And if you are just good enough, if your good is merely equal to your bad you get the privilege of being Gods' slave and feudal property. Pharaoh means Great House and in that House Father owns everything and everybody as his personal property to do with as he will, and from which there is no higher authority authority to appeal to.
The Hebrew and Christian Heaven at least offer music lessons:)
Valhalla and Mount Olympus are quite lively places, The Garden of Allah has all those virgins running around, Buddhist Nirvana is at least described as a type of cessation of desire, Amaritsu rules The Divine Land of the Gods, that is even prettier than its physical place of origins in the minds of Japanese mystics. Imagine the entire world as a Japanese Zen Tea Garden.....
And then the plumber knocked on the door....
--
JL
Wednesday, April 13, 2011
Tavis on Ghandi
*Chuckle"
Ghandi, MLK & Crowley.
"Love is the Law."
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/archive/201104/20110412.html
Specifically:
Joseph Lelyveld interviewed about Ghandi by Tavis Smiley.
Interesting comments on the centrality of "love" in public discourse and not only the lack of it in recent times but the tendency to dismiss it, often with prejudice. And that as much by self identified followers of he who gave them a new commandment to "love one another."
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/archive/201104/20110412_lelyveld.html?vid=1881382312#video
So, while i hadn't thought to coupled ALL these names in one sentence before, nevertheless, the central. core and 'official' teachings of Jesus, Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King and Aleister Crowley is "Love is the Law."
:)
--
JL
M. JL Esq. wrote an expansion on his thoughts after watching the t.v. show his previous post was based on:)
> Joseph Lelyveld interviewed about Ghandi by Tavis Smiley.
>
> Interesting comments on the centrality of "love" in public discourse and not only the lack of it in recent times but the tendency to dismiss it, often with prejudice. And that as much by self identified followers of he who gave them a new commandment to "love one another."
>
> http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/archive/201104/20110412_lelyveld.html?vid=1881382312#video
>
> So, while i hadn't thought to couple ALL these names in one sentence before, nevertheless, the central. core and 'official' teachings of Jesus, Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King and Aleister Crowley is "Love is the Law."
>
> :)
> --
> JL
>
And what we have by way of "public discourse" is what we have made of the old teachings.
Of course, by 'public discourse' i don't mean our little chats here, though technically this does fall under the definition, but rather i was suggesting the existence of bodies of opinions, generally circulating in the world to day. I think most people, with a few historical exceptions, believed peace and plenty were better than war and want. And various cultures express various virtues in various ways, given the peace and plenty to do so.
One can make an argument that we don't have enough people practising the old teachings that tell us to love one another, from those ancient or modern teachers who were followers of more ancient philosophies.
That Great Beast himself (humanity) cant seem to live up to the ideal, much less Crowley:)
Some going so far as to convince them selves they can impose a better or greater peace and plenty by war and want. Which has carried us to the extremes of the present moment in history.
Where "Love" as a debating point or rational for behaviour among those elements of those societies that can and do talk about these things has been dismissed as little more than an antique superstition. "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."
If one were to suggest Christ like love or Ghandian compassion and passive resistance in the war rooms or board rooms of the modern world one would be laughed out of the room, if not worse.
Even in the lecture hall the very idea is constrained to the religion departments of any particular school and in the philosophy and psychology departments it is seen in its propagandistic aspect of moral compulsion as nothing more than an antique superstition, popular meme only lip service is generally given to.
One must fight. For the president of the united states to suggest a foreign policy based on Ghandian or Christ like values of loving, compassionate, self sacrificing passive resistance would be to betray his very inaugural oath of office to "preserve, protect and defend..."
And people being animals, innately, primal, irrational beasts, capable of choosing selfishness rather than selflessness it is foolish to think that some wont, or that we can ever correct the tendency, in fact, whether we should, and if so to what degree?
The best society could very easily produce the worst villain:)
The moral evolution of the species while undeniable, is, demonstrably, weak. It resorts to a primal bestial animalistic state very easily, both individually and collectively, nation states as the proverbial "junk yard dogs" for all the teachings and messiahs and priest and prophets we are no better, morally than we were 2,000 years ago. If anything slightly worse in that we know better now:)
We now know the earth is not at the centre of the universe, physically or philosophically any more.
When the human animal had some reason to think the universe moved around it and that it were the crown of creation, a special being of God to dwell in the world he had created, when it seemed self evident, it is easy to excuse.
But now .... and for the last 500 years or more (discounting ancient speculation that got it right) we know the earth is orbiting a small star in one arm of a single galaxy containing billions of stars, in a universe containing billions times billions of galaxies in an infinite space.
How special can any one planet or species on it be?
Certainly not an excuse for war, or territoriality, "In Hoc Signo Vinces" when it seemed the human animal was singular and special in the universe extreme rationalizations of thought and actions were understandable, now we know we exist in a much larger universe where we are insignificant at best. Ephemeral, we only have about another 5 billion years or so to colonize other planets before our local stellar unit expires, consuming the planet earth with it. We should do it all better as we aren't part of something special and as a random, meaningless accident, we can stumble along in a half hearted attempt to be compassionate or commit ourselves to it merely because we can.
One is given a chance to do good or bad, with either having no bareing on the individuals ultimate fate or destiny.
The human animal is placed in a position in nature where choices are demanded of it by nature that nature does not impose on any other animal.
As an accident, it can have no bearing on any pre-existent plan for its existence or its cessation of existence.
Those aspects of animal life that elevate the human animal above the rest of the animal kingdom are but refinements and elaboration's of similar compulsions in the rest of the animal kingdom. Many animals are more territorial than humans, they have their politics and economics, mateing rituals, taboos, and other similar behaviour.
But "Man" understands & seeks out understanding as almost an primal compulsion.
Given my probly hypnogogic experience of Deity, i wouldn't put it past "Him" to have "Magically" expanded the universe as "Man" observed it.
In a Jack Nicholson voice, God says to man: "You want something to look at? ill give you an infinite universe to look at!"
Micro as well as macroscopic:)
--
J(3.145...:)L
Ghandi, MLK & Crowley.
"Love is the Law."
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/archive/201104/20110412.html
Specifically:
Joseph Lelyveld interviewed about Ghandi by Tavis Smiley.
Interesting comments on the centrality of "love" in public discourse and not only the lack of it in recent times but the tendency to dismiss it, often with prejudice. And that as much by self identified followers of he who gave them a new commandment to "love one another."
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/archive/201104/20110412_lelyveld.html?vid=1881382312#video
So, while i hadn't thought to coupled ALL these names in one sentence before, nevertheless, the central. core and 'official' teachings of Jesus, Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King and Aleister Crowley is "Love is the Law."
:)
--
JL
M. JL Esq. wrote an expansion on his thoughts after watching the t.v. show his previous post was based on:)
> Joseph Lelyveld interviewed about Ghandi by Tavis Smiley.
>
> Interesting comments on the centrality of "love" in public discourse and not only the lack of it in recent times but the tendency to dismiss it, often with prejudice. And that as much by self identified followers of he who gave them a new commandment to "love one another."
>
> http://www.pbs.org/wnet/tavissmiley/archive/201104/20110412_lelyveld.html?vid=1881382312#video
>
> So, while i hadn't thought to couple ALL these names in one sentence before, nevertheless, the central. core and 'official' teachings of Jesus, Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King and Aleister Crowley is "Love is the Law."
>
> :)
> --
> JL
>
And what we have by way of "public discourse" is what we have made of the old teachings.
Of course, by 'public discourse' i don't mean our little chats here, though technically this does fall under the definition, but rather i was suggesting the existence of bodies of opinions, generally circulating in the world to day. I think most people, with a few historical exceptions, believed peace and plenty were better than war and want. And various cultures express various virtues in various ways, given the peace and plenty to do so.
One can make an argument that we don't have enough people practising the old teachings that tell us to love one another, from those ancient or modern teachers who were followers of more ancient philosophies.
That Great Beast himself (humanity) cant seem to live up to the ideal, much less Crowley:)
Some going so far as to convince them selves they can impose a better or greater peace and plenty by war and want. Which has carried us to the extremes of the present moment in history.
Where "Love" as a debating point or rational for behaviour among those elements of those societies that can and do talk about these things has been dismissed as little more than an antique superstition. "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."
If one were to suggest Christ like love or Ghandian compassion and passive resistance in the war rooms or board rooms of the modern world one would be laughed out of the room, if not worse.
Even in the lecture hall the very idea is constrained to the religion departments of any particular school and in the philosophy and psychology departments it is seen in its propagandistic aspect of moral compulsion as nothing more than an antique superstition, popular meme only lip service is generally given to.
One must fight. For the president of the united states to suggest a foreign policy based on Ghandian or Christ like values of loving, compassionate, self sacrificing passive resistance would be to betray his very inaugural oath of office to "preserve, protect and defend..."
And people being animals, innately, primal, irrational beasts, capable of choosing selfishness rather than selflessness it is foolish to think that some wont, or that we can ever correct the tendency, in fact, whether we should, and if so to what degree?
The best society could very easily produce the worst villain:)
The moral evolution of the species while undeniable, is, demonstrably, weak. It resorts to a primal bestial animalistic state very easily, both individually and collectively, nation states as the proverbial "junk yard dogs" for all the teachings and messiahs and priest and prophets we are no better, morally than we were 2,000 years ago. If anything slightly worse in that we know better now:)
We now know the earth is not at the centre of the universe, physically or philosophically any more.
When the human animal had some reason to think the universe moved around it and that it were the crown of creation, a special being of God to dwell in the world he had created, when it seemed self evident, it is easy to excuse.
But now .... and for the last 500 years or more (discounting ancient speculation that got it right) we know the earth is orbiting a small star in one arm of a single galaxy containing billions of stars, in a universe containing billions times billions of galaxies in an infinite space.
How special can any one planet or species on it be?
Certainly not an excuse for war, or territoriality, "In Hoc Signo Vinces" when it seemed the human animal was singular and special in the universe extreme rationalizations of thought and actions were understandable, now we know we exist in a much larger universe where we are insignificant at best. Ephemeral, we only have about another 5 billion years or so to colonize other planets before our local stellar unit expires, consuming the planet earth with it. We should do it all better as we aren't part of something special and as a random, meaningless accident, we can stumble along in a half hearted attempt to be compassionate or commit ourselves to it merely because we can.
One is given a chance to do good or bad, with either having no bareing on the individuals ultimate fate or destiny.
The human animal is placed in a position in nature where choices are demanded of it by nature that nature does not impose on any other animal.
As an accident, it can have no bearing on any pre-existent plan for its existence or its cessation of existence.
Those aspects of animal life that elevate the human animal above the rest of the animal kingdom are but refinements and elaboration's of similar compulsions in the rest of the animal kingdom. Many animals are more territorial than humans, they have their politics and economics, mateing rituals, taboos, and other similar behaviour.
But "Man" understands & seeks out understanding as almost an primal compulsion.
Given my probly hypnogogic experience of Deity, i wouldn't put it past "Him" to have "Magically" expanded the universe as "Man" observed it.
In a Jack Nicholson voice, God says to man: "You want something to look at? ill give you an infinite universe to look at!"
Micro as well as macroscopic:)
--
J(3.145...:)L
Friday, March 18, 2011
From Conjure@yahoogroups.com
RedWill0w@aol.com wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Littleshoes
> To: Conjure@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, Mar 18, 2011 2:06 am
> Subject: [Conjure] Re: Joe's Blog
>
>
> Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
>
>
>
>> Which i mention only in that the point, as per the "blurb" is, at least
>> partly what i have writ here.As i go through my archives of material i have contributed to this and other groups.
>> At this point i have examples of materials i have posted to my blog from
>> this specific conjure group (conjure@), both, attributed and non
>> attributed in my blog. Im not really sure if there is a protocol for
>> this, a common netequette i am unfamiliar with?
>>
>
>
>
>
> Joe,
> Your posts are yours of course, and are under your copyright. They are
> yours to do with as you wish. I know of no particular protocol for this,
> other than perhaps a mention of the site of original publication, if you wish.
>
>
Those very few "quotes" i have made from this group are simple at best: he said & then she said & etc.
& several of them i have quoted in my blog i have edited out even that.
> However, I would like to remind those of you who may have forgotten this
> that it is part of this group's hard and fast policy that Conjure posts may never be copied to another group, etc. without the express, written permission of every single author involved. This applies to everyone who may comment within a given thread, and every post in separate threads must also be so treated.
> I know this isn't your intent Joe! Your post just reminded me of this caveat to joining the group, and I want everyone to remember it.
>
>
Ok but even if its just a yes but? or some small introductory statement? and then i go on and on and on?
I have no real interest in archiving other peoples long, involved explanations, or pithy statements of esoteric formulas for that matter, only my own have a special place in my heart.
Which i then place in my blog:)
0 = 11 ~ (0+10=11) and/or 0 + 9.
But then .... T+A={R}=O+T.
So basically, if you look at my blog you might see an brief... acknowledgement of conjure@....rather than a wholesale quote of our other contributors here.
Does that make any sense?
It seems to, to me, but sometimes im not quite sure of my self:)
--
JL
p.s. especially with this written word.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Littleshoes
> To: Conjure@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, Mar 18, 2011 2:06 am
> Subject: [Conjure] Re: Joe's Blog
>
>
> Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
>
>
>
>> Which i mention only in that the point, as per the "blurb" is, at least
>> partly what i have writ here.As i go through my archives of material i have contributed to this and other groups.
>> At this point i have examples of materials i have posted to my blog from
>> this specific conjure group (conjure@), both, attributed and non
>> attributed in my blog. Im not really sure if there is a protocol for
>> this, a common netequette i am unfamiliar with?
>>
>
>
>
>
> Joe,
> Your posts are yours of course, and are under your copyright. They are
> yours to do with as you wish. I know of no particular protocol for this,
> other than perhaps a mention of the site of original publication, if you wish.
>
>
Those very few "quotes" i have made from this group are simple at best: he said & then she said & etc.
& several of them i have quoted in my blog i have edited out even that.
> However, I would like to remind those of you who may have forgotten this
> that it is part of this group's hard and fast policy that Conjure posts may never be copied to another group, etc. without the express, written permission of every single author involved. This applies to everyone who may comment within a given thread, and every post in separate threads must also be so treated.
> I know this isn't your intent Joe! Your post just reminded me of this caveat to joining the group, and I want everyone to remember it.
>
>
Ok but even if its just a yes but? or some small introductory statement? and then i go on and on and on?
I have no real interest in archiving other peoples long, involved explanations, or pithy statements of esoteric formulas for that matter, only my own have a special place in my heart.
Which i then place in my blog:)
0 = 11 ~ (0+10=11) and/or 0 + 9.
But then .... T+A={R}=O+T.
So basically, if you look at my blog you might see an brief... acknowledgement of conjure@....rather than a wholesale quote of our other contributors here.
Does that make any sense?
It seems to, to me, but sometimes im not quite sure of my self:)
--
JL
p.s. especially with this written word.
Archival Attmepts
Robert Scott Martin wrote:
> Wisdom & Technic of ye Ancients
>
> M. JL Esq. wrote:
>
>
>> "Some scholars" see many things including cabalistic
>> symbolism http://tinyurl.com/5tuq4u4
>
>
>
> [...]
>
>
> "It is the trouble with such connections that they are more easily made than undone. Associations are like gossamer threads; however light they may be, they tend to cling. Perhaps the injunction -- 'Only connect' -- is misleading. We want the switchboard operator to make only the right connections. It will be remembered that Shearman triumphantly did so in his earlier comments on the very subject of Mary's mourning over the dead Christ. Is it not a pity that he has here obtruded such erudite irrelevancies into our experience of one of Michelangelo's most moving images? We writers on art may carry a greater burden of responsibility in such matters than is sometimes realized."
>
> http://www.gombrich.co.uk/showrev.php?id=19
Thanks for that. But it seemed a long way to go for very little.
THough im not sure how you relate Mary mourning over the dead Christ and the Doni Tondo.
http://www.gnostic.org/ihsm/rosary/images_lrg/02_glori_ascen_dali.jpg
"The probability for an event that can happen in two indistinguishable ways is the sum of the probability for each way considered separately."
The forming of any opinion is ultimately a 50/50 chance or random event.
--
JL
> Wisdom & Technic of ye Ancients
>
> M. JL Esq.
>
>
>> "Some scholars" see many things including cabalistic
>> symbolism http://tinyurl.com/5tuq4u4
>
>
>
> [...]
>
>
> "It is the trouble with such connections that they are more easily made than undone. Associations are like gossamer threads; however light they may be, they tend to cling. Perhaps the injunction -- 'Only connect' -- is misleading. We want the switchboard operator to make only the right connections. It will be remembered that Shearman triumphantly did so in his earlier comments on the very subject of Mary's mourning over the dead Christ. Is it not a pity that he has here obtruded such erudite irrelevancies into our experience of one of Michelangelo's most moving images? We writers on art may carry a greater burden of responsibility in such matters than is sometimes realized."
>
> http://www.gombrich.co.uk/showrev.php?id=19
Thanks for that. But it seemed a long way to go for very little.
THough im not sure how you relate Mary mourning over the dead Christ and the Doni Tondo.
http://www.gnostic.org/ihsm/rosary/images_lrg/02_glori_ascen_dali.jpg
"The probability for an event that can happen in two indistinguishable ways is the sum of the probability for each way considered separately."
The forming of any opinion is ultimately a 50/50 chance or random event.
--
JL
Thursday, March 17, 2011
Cailles
Cailles (Quail, very small, can go in an apple or an potato:)
>>> Not something I cook often but tonight we will be having one each
>>> stuffed with a mix of sausagemeat and fresh herbs. There will not be
>>> very much jus, if any from these, anyone got any tips on making a
>>> simple gravy, I thought of shallot, red wine and thickening it with
>>> creme fraiche but I think that will be a bit bland?
>>
>>
>> Whisky sauce? deglaze the cooking pan with brandy & stock & add a bit of
>> orange zest? use the calvados if you have it? Madeira is often used
>> with quail, a good brandy and very ripe quince? quails with cherries is
>> not uncommon but involves poaching the cherries and adding red currant
>> jelly and port wine as well as veal stock.
>> --
>> JL
>
>
>
> Brilliant, Calvados it is as I love apples. I don't have any oranges
> in the house but I do have lemons so I'll use that. I have a big
> bottle of cherries in eau de vie, they are now ready to eat, so I will
> incorporate a few in the jus, thank you Joseph.
Just FYI
Cailles aux Cerises
For 4 Quails: Truss the quails en Entree and cook them en Casserole with butter.
Deglaze the casserole with a little brandy and 2 fl. oz or 1/4 cup Port wine in which a piece of orange peel has been soaked.
Add 3 tbs. good veal stock, 1 tbs. red currant jelly and 40 stoned MOrello cherries, poached in a syrup of about 18 degree on the saccharometer and cooled in the syrup. Drain these cherries before adding to the quails.
If the sauce is too sweet, acidulate it with a few drops of lemon juice.
I can see using your brandied cherries in this dish just by draining them and adding to a pan sauce made from the pan juices & any basting liquids of the roasted quail.
Perhaps cook the quails on a bed of veggies with some water or stock and baste with butter? afterwards reserving the pan juices for the sauce to which the cherries could be added. Add the calvados at the last moment and serve 'flambe"?
Im not so big on fruit and meat dishes (chicken ala proust being an exception) but i occasionally make a plumb & asparagus or broccoli beef for an elderly relative, i don't do it often because a really ripe plumb is hard to find in the city without going way out of my way. But i used to use me mums home canned plums, and then it was about as good as fruit and meat gets:)
And here's Escoffiers Apple & quail recipe.
Cailles a la Normande
"Select nice even shaped pippin apples; cut off the top third horizontally and empty them out to form cases; hollow out the tops of the apples as well.
Place 1/2 ounce of butter in each quail then colour them in butter; place one quail in each of the apples, sprinkle with a little Calvados and cover with the tops of the apples.
Enclose each apple with its quail in a layer of short paste as one would a Rabotte de Pomme. Place on a baking tray, brush with beaten egg and place in a hot oven for approximately 30 minutes."
There is a similar recipe using a potato shell (no short paste) rather than apples and a whisky sauce and just cause im thinking about it, i often bake apples & pork chops together with butter & a bit of calvados and finish with cream, cotes de porc a la Normande iirc?
--
JL
>>> Not something I cook often but tonight we will be having one each
>>> stuffed with a mix of sausagemeat and fresh herbs. There will not be
>>> very much jus, if any from these, anyone got any tips on making a
>>> simple gravy, I thought of shallot, red wine and thickening it with
>>> creme fraiche but I think that will be a bit bland?
>>
>>
>> Whisky sauce? deglaze the cooking pan with brandy & stock & add a bit of
>> orange zest? use the calvados if you have it? Madeira is often used
>> with quail, a good brandy and very ripe quince? quails with cherries is
>> not uncommon but involves poaching the cherries and adding red currant
>> jelly and port wine as well as veal stock.
>> --
>> JL
>
>
>
> Brilliant, Calvados it is as I love apples. I don't have any oranges
> in the house but I do have lemons so I'll use that. I have a big
> bottle of cherries in eau de vie, they are now ready to eat, so I will
> incorporate a few in the jus, thank you Joseph.
Just FYI
Cailles aux Cerises
For 4 Quails: Truss the quails en Entree and cook them en Casserole with butter.
Deglaze the casserole with a little brandy and 2 fl. oz or 1/4 cup Port wine in which a piece of orange peel has been soaked.
Add 3 tbs. good veal stock, 1 tbs. red currant jelly and 40 stoned MOrello cherries, poached in a syrup of about 18 degree on the saccharometer and cooled in the syrup. Drain these cherries before adding to the quails.
If the sauce is too sweet, acidulate it with a few drops of lemon juice.
I can see using your brandied cherries in this dish just by draining them and adding to a pan sauce made from the pan juices & any basting liquids of the roasted quail.
Perhaps cook the quails on a bed of veggies with some water or stock and baste with butter? afterwards reserving the pan juices for the sauce to which the cherries could be added. Add the calvados at the last moment and serve 'flambe"?
Im not so big on fruit and meat dishes (chicken ala proust being an exception) but i occasionally make a plumb & asparagus or broccoli beef for an elderly relative, i don't do it often because a really ripe plumb is hard to find in the city without going way out of my way. But i used to use me mums home canned plums, and then it was about as good as fruit and meat gets:)
And here's Escoffiers Apple & quail recipe.
Cailles a la Normande
"Select nice even shaped pippin apples; cut off the top third horizontally and empty them out to form cases; hollow out the tops of the apples as well.
Place 1/2 ounce of butter in each quail then colour them in butter; place one quail in each of the apples, sprinkle with a little Calvados and cover with the tops of the apples.
Enclose each apple with its quail in a layer of short paste as one would a Rabotte de Pomme. Place on a baking tray, brush with beaten egg and place in a hot oven for approximately 30 minutes."
There is a similar recipe using a potato shell (no short paste) rather than apples and a whisky sauce and just cause im thinking about it, i often bake apples & pork chops together with butter & a bit of calvados and finish with cream, cotes de porc a la Normande iirc?
--
JL
> Ok...
>
> I'm also saying thje tree as a whole is an emanation.....thus we'dd have 11 (2 er emanations.......(cue someone quoting the sefer yetziirah)
>
> arguably the fool of course can go anywhere....
>
>
I meant to expand on my understanding of the paths and the lack of them in the model i offered, but i forgot to do so.
However, to correct that oversight, i conceptualize 0 as a symbol for both (in some irrational way) the centre/core of my own being and the Universe as a whole.
An multi-omni-inter-dimensional Mobius strip of one many all is about as good as i can describe it in words.
And the stages of this as symbolized by the paths of the TOL can just as easily be illustrated by the lack of them:)
In so far as we postulate 10 concentric spheres, we delineate a difference and distinction between them, thus, like the spaces between the musical notes the "spaces" between the sphere produce the music of them:)
Are implied rather than explicit and are more spherical, nested one inside the other than they are lineal and proceeding in straight or curved lines and rather more like radiation emanating multi directionally, as well as receiving multi dimensional influence form all around and both inside and out?
> the modern image that is associated with hermetic kabbalah is associated with Kircher.....of course as a christian cleric, and if we do some digging...the association of kircher is garbage...
>
> The best argument I have seen for the paths is sacred geommetry...and the flower of life
>
>
Esoteric Anatomy.
> the tree can be modelled in many ways....the kircher glyph as am sure you know...is really quite modern
>
If by Kircher glyph you mean....
http://img04.ti-da.net/usr/kukururagu/Tree_of_life_kircher_hebrew.png
12-1300's c.e. iirc, previous to that the so called "tree of life" or QBL diagram was 10 concentric spheres with various names/attributes inscribed between each ring of the nested spheres. Is zero kether as the mathematical point or is zero behind kether as ain soph aur and Kether as #1 is the central, core sphere. Or is Kether the mathematical point, central core sphere 0. And Chokmah while labelled number 2 is really most peoples #1 or first sphere. There is a necessarily recognizable ambiguity in it all that i despair of ever doing justice to in any descriptive form attempting to explain it all. Something distinctly irrational that is only attempted to be explained by Daath.
The earliest forms of the so called Kircher TOL have differing mapping for the paths than the modern versions. Which i have had explained to me as like trying to open up the nested spheres and demonstrate in a more lineal manner the transmission or evolution of something from nothing, i find it easier to think of the nested spheres than the extended TOL of the Kiercher glyph.
My experience of the phenomena as an example of esoteric anatomy does not qualify me to suggest even an opinion on the efficacy of either approach. I know less about one than i do the other:)
And the experiential aspect i mentioned is based on my own perceptions of my own awareness, which is ordinary in the extreme, and biased in favour of its own existence, even when its comfortable contemplating its own illusory nature.
A passing, transient, ephemeral phenomena not unlike a twig momentarily held motionless in a turbulent stream of water, a brief, accidental interlude of mutual contending forces producing, seemingly, a cessation of motion, a transcendental stillness.
In so far as a body in motion will remain in motion & etc. how is it we come to have reports of these twigs held steady by the perfectly balanced currents of water? Of course, unlike the ancient natural philosophers, we cant remove the specific from the general. No matter how still the individual twig in its individual stream may be it is still whirling madly through the universe, the momentary stillness of any particular twig is just an illusion.
--
JL
>
> I'm also saying thje tree as a whole is an emanation.....thus we'dd have 11 (2 er emanations.......(cue someone quoting the sefer yetziirah)
>
> arguably the fool of course can go anywhere....
>
>
I meant to expand on my understanding of the paths and the lack of them in the model i offered, but i forgot to do so.
However, to correct that oversight, i conceptualize 0 as a symbol for both (in some irrational way) the centre/core of my own being and the Universe as a whole.
An multi-omni-inter-dimensional Mobius strip of one many all is about as good as i can describe it in words.
And the stages of this as symbolized by the paths of the TOL can just as easily be illustrated by the lack of them:)
In so far as we postulate 10 concentric spheres, we delineate a difference and distinction between them, thus, like the spaces between the musical notes the "spaces" between the sphere produce the music of them:)
Are implied rather than explicit and are more spherical, nested one inside the other than they are lineal and proceeding in straight or curved lines and rather more like radiation emanating multi directionally, as well as receiving multi dimensional influence form all around and both inside and out?
> the modern image that is associated with hermetic kabbalah is associated with Kircher.....of course as a christian cleric, and if we do some digging...the association of kircher is garbage...
>
> The best argument I have seen for the paths is sacred geommetry...and the flower of life
>
>
Esoteric Anatomy.
> the tree can be modelled in many ways....the kircher glyph as am sure you know...is really quite modern
>
If by Kircher glyph you mean....
http://img04.ti-da.net/usr/kukururagu/Tree_of_life_kircher_hebrew.png
12-1300's c.e. iirc, previous to that the so called "tree of life" or QBL diagram was 10 concentric spheres with various names/attributes inscribed between each ring of the nested spheres. Is zero kether as the mathematical point or is zero behind kether as ain soph aur and Kether as #1 is the central, core sphere. Or is Kether the mathematical point, central core sphere 0. And Chokmah while labelled number 2 is really most peoples #1 or first sphere. There is a necessarily recognizable ambiguity in it all that i despair of ever doing justice to in any descriptive form attempting to explain it all. Something distinctly irrational that is only attempted to be explained by Daath.
The earliest forms of the so called Kircher TOL have differing mapping for the paths than the modern versions. Which i have had explained to me as like trying to open up the nested spheres and demonstrate in a more lineal manner the transmission or evolution of something from nothing, i find it easier to think of the nested spheres than the extended TOL of the Kiercher glyph.
My experience of the phenomena as an example of esoteric anatomy does not qualify me to suggest even an opinion on the efficacy of either approach. I know less about one than i do the other:)
And the experiential aspect i mentioned is based on my own perceptions of my own awareness, which is ordinary in the extreme, and biased in favour of its own existence, even when its comfortable contemplating its own illusory nature.
A passing, transient, ephemeral phenomena not unlike a twig momentarily held motionless in a turbulent stream of water, a brief, accidental interlude of mutual contending forces producing, seemingly, a cessation of motion, a transcendental stillness.
In so far as a body in motion will remain in motion & etc. how is it we come to have reports of these twigs held steady by the perfectly balanced currents of water? Of course, unlike the ancient natural philosophers, we cant remove the specific from the general. No matter how still the individual twig in its individual stream may be it is still whirling madly through the universe, the momentary stillness of any particular twig is just an illusion.
--
JL
QBL
> No...lol
>
> but honestyly will have to write that one down to visualize ot....
>
> Only quick comment.....
>
> How do you deal with 22 cards...but rt paths, if Iam understanding you?
>
>
There is an early form of Hebrew QBL called the QBL of concentric spheres. In which there are no paths as illustrated in the later development of the TOL.
0 (zero) in this case represents not so much the abstract mathematical point as much as what ever may cause the mathematical point to come into existence.
> Have you ever thought of seeing Zero as the entire tree.itself?
Im familiar with each number, including zero, having its own complete universe of existence, "all numbers are infinite and there is no difference' each number containing a complete tree.
> In the same way that the four elements contain each.other water is made of water, air, fire, earth....and each kabbalistic emanation can also be seen "fractally"......
>
> Which is good for your concentric circles......perhaps then zero could be The limitless light...that is Ain....
>
>
I associate the point with 0 but of course the ain soph aur is 'behind' the zero..
--
JL
>
> but honestyly will have to write that one down to visualize ot....
>
> Only quick comment.....
>
> How do you deal with 22 cards...but rt paths, if Iam understanding you?
>
>
There is an early form of Hebrew QBL called the QBL of concentric spheres. In which there are no paths as illustrated in the later development of the TOL.
0 (zero) in this case represents not so much the abstract mathematical point as much as what ever may cause the mathematical point to come into existence.
> Have you ever thought of seeing Zero as the entire tree.itself?
Im familiar with each number, including zero, having its own complete universe of existence, "all numbers are infinite and there is no difference' each number containing a complete tree.
> In the same way that the four elements contain each.other water is made of water, air, fire, earth....and each kabbalistic emanation can also be seen "fractally"......
>
> Which is good for your concentric circles......perhaps then zero could be The limitless light...that is Ain....
>
>
I associate the point with 0 but of course the ain soph aur is 'behind' the zero..
--
JL
I Fantasize......
I fantasize about a forest i can tidy up.
At least some small acreage of forest, of pine or fir, with mossy ground that can be manicured to a state of natural perfection. Ala the strolling gardens of Kyoto. WHere the placement and arrangement of plants, moss and stone are seemingly random but highly manicured and maintained.
I used to go to a hippy commune up in Oregon (USA), in the Mohawk valley that did much the same thing with about 20+ acres of old growth forest, The forested areas were just tidied up, cleaned, pruned or otherwise manicured to a tidy version of their natural state.
Eventually stone paths were placed and the occasional flowering plant such as fern and rhododendron were transplanted and allowed to spread.
It was a very charming, calm, soothing place with a distinctly Zen vibe. For about 3 months of the year, the rest of the time it either rained or snowed:(
--
JL
At least some small acreage of forest, of pine or fir, with mossy ground that can be manicured to a state of natural perfection. Ala the strolling gardens of Kyoto. WHere the placement and arrangement of plants, moss and stone are seemingly random but highly manicured and maintained.
I used to go to a hippy commune up in Oregon (USA), in the Mohawk valley that did much the same thing with about 20+ acres of old growth forest, The forested areas were just tidied up, cleaned, pruned or otherwise manicured to a tidy version of their natural state.
Eventually stone paths were placed and the occasional flowering plant such as fern and rhododendron were transplanted and allowed to spread.
It was a very charming, calm, soothing place with a distinctly Zen vibe. For about 3 months of the year, the rest of the time it either rained or snowed:(
--
JL
Tuesday, March 8, 2011
Hoodoo group (Conjure@) archive 1.
Albert Great wrote:
>>"That is how Pow Wows which is German became part of hoodoo"
>>
>>
>>Perhaps your thoughts are more clear to you the thinker of them than they are to
>>those you communicate them to in writing.
>>Where did they get the word? as for calling it "stealing" or any other form of
>>appropriation look to the context of this entire thread.
>>
>>
>--
>
>
>>JL
>>
>>
>
>Joseph,
>
>I have been on this forum for a while, but don't contribute overly much. Every
>once in a while, I'll post, but I read the threads quite�a bit. I've noticed
>that you tend to dissect and cut apart posts and people's statements for your
>own clarification, but in the process tend to confuse the matter a bit for the
>rest of us. You usually follow this up with rather lengthy posts that ramble on
>for a bit. I don't mean to be insulting and I do find what you have to say both
>insightful and interesting, but it'd be nice if you didn't dissect posts in such
>a manner. It simply leads to all sorts of confusion.
>
>
Personal preference, i prefer limiting what i quote of another persons
posts to that which i am directly replying to.
>For example, when I read your response to Mike I was thoroughly confused--where
>did Mike make any of the claims you implied he did when you decided to post that
>rather long bit about the word "pow wow?" It wasn't until this post that once
>again you seemed to have miscontrued something and then�it went somewhere
>entirely elsewhere.
>
>Maybe, I am just a tad dense, or maybe you are completely missing what is being
>said. Mike was talking about respect and being open. He mentioned that the
>German Pow Wow became part of Hoodoo because of this. Pow Wow refers to the
>shortened or popular name of a text known as the Long Lost Friend. This
>text�details a series of German folk practices employed by the Pennsylvania
>Dutch. He never claimed it was Native American, nor did he claim the word was
>German, in fact he made no reference to etymology at all. All he did was to
>point out that sometimes certain practices are adopted by practictioners of a
>different tradition.
>
>
You should read the previous posts in reference to people taking things
from one tradition and grafting them on to another. Changing aspects of
one tradition for their own purposes does not mean they are changing the
entire tradition & culture they are taking it from.
Some people here resent this when it directly impinges on aspects they
consider as belonging solely to hoodoo and are then applied in ways they
do not approve of.
But its a two way street, hoodoo is not free from adopting the practices
of many traditions besides the christian. For that matter neither is
Christianity you just have to go back further in time to see the
borrowings Christianity made or copied from older traditions and that
not limited to the Hebrew traditions.
>
>The practices of the Pennsylvania Dutch made it into hoodoo and while I'm sure
>that some at the time bemoaned the fact that it wasn't hoodoo, the point of the
>post was to indicate (correct me if I am wrong, Mike) that with respect and an
>open mind traditions can learn from another and be informed by one another.
>
>
>Saif.
>
The original subject title of this thread was "hoodoo and christianity"
at some point the "christianity" got edited out of the subject line and
some people coming into the thread late may not understand the origins
of the thread.....Dara started the thread with this statement.
"Friends,
As you all know, over the past few years there has been a strong
popular
interest in Hoodoo by many folks from outside of the culture to which
it belongs. Some of these folks contest and dislike the idea that Hoodoo is
fundamentally and inseparably entwined with Christian beliefs and practices.
Yet it firmly and undeniably is....."
Later on this comment was made.
" the argument keeps coming up because Pagans are trying to justify
cherry picking & changing Hoodoo to suit their beliefs. It's bad
etiquette, it's rude & it's wrong."
From this sprang several observations on sources for hoodoo and even
for christianity. The subject title was altered to ATR's and Hoodoo
and a comment about the offering of whisky to the spirit of the Sauk
Chief Black Hawk was made and i replied that no matter how "traditional"
this may be for hoodoo does not lessen the offensiveness of it to Native
peoples, and then we got caught up in the definition and etymology of
"Pow Wow".
Which, as far as im concerned is a Native american word.
To sum up all this it seems to me hypocritical for a hoodoo'er to
complain about cherry picking, "stealing" or adopting of one traditions
practices by another or even using aspects of one tradition to bolster
or support the invention of a new tradition when it is so obviously
apparent that hoodoo itself is an amalgam of many traditions.
I am as much against the bogus spiritual frauds, hucksters, & etc.
whose only purpose is to separate the gullible from their money as most
people are, but those people aside, this 'syncretism' is a universal
phenomena for people who are exposed to other people, its inevitable and
does not of itself imply any lack of respect or fraud. In many case
quite the opposite.
And when ever i hear these accusations of a lack of respect coming from
one tradition and aimed at another i tend to think the accusers are
either naive or fanatics, possibly both and when it involves the major
religions of the world i suspect a political agenda that has nothing to
do with 'truth' or reason. But is rather the expression of an
irrational fanaticism.
Hebrew, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God and yet look at
the squabbles they have over "Truth" and tradition (even within their
own communities). And this extending beyond the philosophical into the
real politic of the world where people are killed and maimed and
impoverished over assumed insults to "tradition."
--
JL
>>"That is how Pow Wows which is German became part of hoodoo"
>>
>>
>>Perhaps your thoughts are more clear to you the thinker of them than they are to
>>those you communicate them to in writing.
>>Where did they get the word? as for calling it "stealing" or any other form of
>>appropriation look to the context of this entire thread.
>>
>>
>--
>
>
>>JL
>>
>>
>
>Joseph,
>
>I have been on this forum for a while, but don't contribute overly much. Every
>once in a while, I'll post, but I read the threads quite�a bit. I've noticed
>that you tend to dissect and cut apart posts and people's statements for your
>own clarification, but in the process tend to confuse the matter a bit for the
>rest of us. You usually follow this up with rather lengthy posts that ramble on
>for a bit. I don't mean to be insulting and I do find what you have to say both
>insightful and interesting, but it'd be nice if you didn't dissect posts in such
>a manner. It simply leads to all sorts of confusion.
>
>
Personal preference, i prefer limiting what i quote of another persons
posts to that which i am directly replying to.
>For example, when I read your response to Mike I was thoroughly confused--where
>did Mike make any of the claims you implied he did when you decided to post that
>rather long bit about the word "pow wow?" It wasn't until this post that once
>again you seemed to have miscontrued something and then�it went somewhere
>entirely elsewhere.
>
>Maybe, I am just a tad dense, or maybe you are completely missing what is being
>said. Mike was talking about respect and being open. He mentioned that the
>German Pow Wow became part of Hoodoo because of this. Pow Wow refers to the
>shortened or popular name of a text known as the Long Lost Friend. This
>text�details a series of German folk practices employed by the Pennsylvania
>Dutch. He never claimed it was Native American, nor did he claim the word was
>German, in fact he made no reference to etymology at all. All he did was to
>point out that sometimes certain practices are adopted by practictioners of a
>different tradition.
>
>
You should read the previous posts in reference to people taking things
from one tradition and grafting them on to another. Changing aspects of
one tradition for their own purposes does not mean they are changing the
entire tradition & culture they are taking it from.
Some people here resent this when it directly impinges on aspects they
consider as belonging solely to hoodoo and are then applied in ways they
do not approve of.
But its a two way street, hoodoo is not free from adopting the practices
of many traditions besides the christian. For that matter neither is
Christianity you just have to go back further in time to see the
borrowings Christianity made or copied from older traditions and that
not limited to the Hebrew traditions.
>
>The practices of the Pennsylvania Dutch made it into hoodoo and while I'm sure
>that some at the time bemoaned the fact that it wasn't hoodoo, the point of the
>post was to indicate (correct me if I am wrong, Mike) that with respect and an
>open mind traditions can learn from another and be informed by one another.
>
>
>Saif.
>
The original subject title of this thread was "hoodoo and christianity"
at some point the "christianity" got edited out of the subject line and
some people coming into the thread late may not understand the origins
of the thread.....Dara started the thread with this statement.
"Friends,
As you all know, over the past few years there has been a strong
popular
interest in Hoodoo by many folks from outside of the culture to which
it belongs. Some of these folks contest and dislike the idea that Hoodoo is
fundamentally and inseparably entwined with Christian beliefs and practices.
Yet it firmly and undeniably is....."
Later on this comment was made.
" the argument keeps coming up because Pagans are trying to justify
cherry picking & changing Hoodoo to suit their beliefs. It's bad
etiquette, it's rude & it's wrong."
From this sprang several observations on sources for hoodoo and even
for christianity. The subject title was altered to ATR's and Hoodoo
and a comment about the offering of whisky to the spirit of the Sauk
Chief Black Hawk was made and i replied that no matter how "traditional"
this may be for hoodoo does not lessen the offensiveness of it to Native
peoples, and then we got caught up in the definition and etymology of
"Pow Wow".
Which, as far as im concerned is a Native american word.
To sum up all this it seems to me hypocritical for a hoodoo'er to
complain about cherry picking, "stealing" or adopting of one traditions
practices by another or even using aspects of one tradition to bolster
or support the invention of a new tradition when it is so obviously
apparent that hoodoo itself is an amalgam of many traditions.
I am as much against the bogus spiritual frauds, hucksters, & etc.
whose only purpose is to separate the gullible from their money as most
people are, but those people aside, this 'syncretism' is a universal
phenomena for people who are exposed to other people, its inevitable and
does not of itself imply any lack of respect or fraud. In many case
quite the opposite.
And when ever i hear these accusations of a lack of respect coming from
one tradition and aimed at another i tend to think the accusers are
either naive or fanatics, possibly both and when it involves the major
religions of the world i suspect a political agenda that has nothing to
do with 'truth' or reason. But is rather the expression of an
irrational fanaticism.
Hebrew, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God and yet look at
the squabbles they have over "Truth" and tradition (even within their
own communities). And this extending beyond the philosophical into the
real politic of the world where people are killed and maimed and
impoverished over assumed insults to "tradition."
--
JL
Tuesday, February 1, 2011
Sunday, January 23, 2011
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)
Posts
